allthelayers.com

Last I checked I had some summary statements in my head about my stance on hell, which went something like:

• Evangelism could actually send people to hell, depending on what we believe about accountability and whether God will send the unreached to hell.

• If there is a hell, it might be unethical to have children (imho). (And currently my plans are to have more children, so you see the conundrum :) )

I’ve also been meaning to look into some resources on tentmaker.org, which a poster to a “do you believe in heaven/hell” question on one of the boards referenced. I actually just got to that tonight. In addition to a rather rambling diddy regarding the several dozen difficult questions about hell, there was this article on the Christian Universalist position: http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html

I found this to be a very thoughtful discourse. I don’t agree with all of it of course, but it’s thoughtfully presented. From that, here are some scriptures supporting a universalist position:

• I Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

• Colossians 1:19-20. For in him [Christ] all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

• Romans 5:18. Then as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous. <interesting notes on the common exclusion of the from this passage in the NIV>

Also lots of discussion about what we translate as “hell”, and the meaning of “all”, “many”, and “eternal”, and some good discussion about the possibility of being presented the gospel after death. I especially enjoyed this note:

(Note: The NIV scandalously translates the beginning of I Peter 4:6 as “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,” confessing in a study note to the NIV Study Bible — users of NIV’s other than the NIV Study Bible don’t get this warning — that “the word ‘now’ does not occur in the Greek,”…) <he goes on to strongly deride the NIV for adding words to make the text fit their theology>

So all very helpful and interesting. However, I would ask that any universalist deal with 3 scriptures:

• Romans 10:9 - If you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

• Matthew 25:46 - These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. <sheeps and goats>

• John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

This article actually addresses the first 2 points, the first very squarely and the second poorly. But the first is answered squarely with this passage:

Phillipians 2:10-11 …so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So from that angle, there’s no escaping heaven. He outlines elsewhere that his version of the universalist position still left plenty of room for some kind of judgment and punishment after death, and that it is only through Christ that we come to the Father, and that we have every reason to seek Christ today, even if our eventual joining with him is inevitable. (This naturally raised some questions about free will, etc.)

The Matthew 25 passage however, was a little bit skirted over. It was discussed in the context of when we interpreted “eon of eons” as “eternal”. He has me convinced that “eternal” might not be a good interpretation of II Thessalonians 1:9 “They shall suffer punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” since the word there is translated at “long ages past” in Romans 16:25 (”according to the revelation of (C)the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past”, but I’m pretty sure that in Matthew 25 it means eternal.

Let’s research that. Young’s literal translation is “And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during”. Hm.

DeRose also points out that the Mathew passage is part of a set of parables, which he is cautious to derive strict theology from. I would note that the previous two parables left the unattentive virgins out in the cold and the untalented servent out in the outer darkness gnashing his teeth, and finally the goats going to “age-during” punishment - none of those paraballic examples seemed to indicate a short-term punishment. He points out that the sheep/goats parable also suggests salvation by works, which of course even his critics don’t accept, so that leaves him very skeptical of using the chapter for theology. (I agree that is suggests salvation by works, and is one of a few scriptures that suggest this fairly clearly, in direct contradiction to the ever popular Pauline doctrine of grace - I think we have several issues here.)

Anyway, he skirts Matthew 25, but so does everyone - if taken literally, it’s a salvation-by-works eternally damning passage.

As for John 3:16, it wasn’t addressed. Perhaps another universalist can help me out on this point. Perhaps Phillipians 2 is thought to apply equally well to it. But there’s seems to be some requirement here for action on our part, without which the salvation acquired by Christ does not kick in.

Overall I think the thoughtful Universalists are asking some terrific questions that I have also had for several years, and that’s helpful. Overall it still seems like a fair bit of contradiction to deal with, but at least the Christian Universalists have confirmed my own experience regarding modern Christian teachings about hell, namely, that the Bible is not consistently supportive of them:

• the Old Testament never even mentions “hell” proper and only has “sheol” where everyone goes, it is simply the state of death

• 3 words in the New Testament are translated “hell” (http://www.tentmaker.org/books/TheBibleHell.html):

• Hades, the Greek for Sheol, ie, the hidden state of the dead (hades = hidden, out of sight)

• Gehenna, the Greek for the Hebrew “ge hinnom”, of the valley of hinnom which in Jesus time was a valley where all Jerusalem burned it’s trash. It has historical significance for the Jews as a place where God judged them for atrocious acts of sacrificing their children to Moloch, and in Jesus parables, can be understood as a threat of impending judgment upon Israel, not eternal judgment for mankind.

• Tartarus, quoted by Peter who was referencing a legend from the book of Enoch, and which referred to chains lasting until a time of judgment, not eternally

• None of these really support eternal damnation. I think the universalists would argue that the “good news” being spread in the early days of the church was life after death, not salvation from eternal hell, and that hell was something present in Greek and Egyptian religions that worked it’s way in as Christianity spread, especially considering it’s usefulness in controlling the masses.

As a bonus point, here’s a note on the English word “Hell”:

• Borrowed from the goddess of the underworld “Hele” from German mythology. From the same German root we also get “hole”, “helmet”, “hall”, etc. Per http://www.mercifultruth.com/hel.htm, “Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they “went to hel”…”

:) And that’s all the layers for tonight.

Ping to Tim who says “…In fact, easy database programming in VB has marched backwards since Visual Basic 3 back in 1993.”

I’m sure we’re all just forgetting how painful VB3 could be, but still, even with Visual Studio being as great as it is, it seems like there’s a lot more room for improvement than what I would have guessed a 2008 version of the product would need. Less whistles, less LiNQ, and more just making simple stuff work would be very welcome.

Last night in the hotel I was riding the cross-trainer late at night (!) and got to hear Michael Moore speak for a bit. He reminded me that the real crisis with the oil crisis is not the gasoline and the electricity, b/c we have possible solutions on those. It’s the glasses he’s wearing, the microphone he’s speaking into, and the podium he’s standing behind that are the problem - all products of petroleum. Not having petroleum as energy is only part of the issue; the bigger crisis is not having petroleum as material.

So that got me worrying about the future of my grandkids and how to setup a farm / compound where they can live fruitfully without petroleum. ;)

I wonder though. The transportation, gasoline, and electiricity problems are not like little problems, and yet the most liberal filmaker in the world seems to think we have a bead on those. I know we’ve already got biodegradable corn-plastic containers being used in some whole foods stores, so it sounds like the “plastic replacements” problem is also being worked on. And we were constructing glasses and podiums before we had petroleum - though not microphones. And not as many glasses.

The real problem with all petroleum replacements at any level is going to be price. How do you make it affordable and broadly distributable? Will glasses and microphones become bobbles of the rich?

Here’s my paraphrase of the debate:

From an overall standpoint, Obama had more poise and made more sense to me. That doesn’t make him right, but I’d say it was a good debate. Both did well, but overall, slightly in Obama’s favor.

Wow, either I’m a total idiot about Iran’s nuclear aspirations and they are a serious threat, or both of these guys are off the charts on the real issues there. Despite the tough talk, no real differences in their positions on Iran or Russia. Sure McCain pretends that Obama’s an overly diplomatic pansy (wrong), and Obama pretends that McCain has no diplomatic skills at all (wrong), but that’s just politics. They’re aligned on the issue of those countries.

On Iraq, I think Obama’s broader, multi-facted strategy makes more sense. I’m not worried about him actually doing something really stupid, like pulling out too fast. He’s right that we need to restore some credibility in the world. Fortunately either candidate can do that since there’s nowhere to go but up. McCain likes to pretend that Obama would pull out too soon, and that he wouldn’t finish the job in Iraq. Obama likes to pretend that McCain has tunnel vision. Neither are true, but I do think Obama’s vision does seem to be a little deeper and wider.

Lots of dodged bullets on the economy. McCain wants to lower business taxes and decrease spending. He’s right; despite what Obama thinks is the “tax reality” for businesses in America, America is becoming an increasingly hard place to run a business. Taking advantage of loopholes is not the right answer. A simplified tax code is.Will a tax cut to the rich help? Of course it depends on what they do with it. If they spend it, then it helps. If they provide more jobs with it, then it helps. If they invest it in foreign countries, then it hurts. It’s a risky proposition.

Obama wants to work on infrastructure for the global economy. That sounds good. I think he’s overly optimistic about alternative fuel and how fast we can ramp up on that, but hey, sometimes the “impossible” is simply the “untried”, right? (Who said that?) So maybe we should give it a good solid shot. How, with a $700 billion dollar bailout deal coming, we’ll be able to afford it is questionable.

McCain believes in letting the market innovate, and depending on the American worker. He’s old school in that regard. I know we have some great workers, but can Gen-X and Gen-Y step up? This isn’t a generation of farmers coming back from a world war to rebuild the country. We’re the generation from broken, but comfortable, homes. We’re very entitlement oriented, me included. The market may decide to get it’s labor elsewhere, like Dell, or relocate altogether, like Haliburton. I don’t think hands-off provides any guarantees. But more Obama like regulation and government control of innovation don’t strike me as instantly sound either. Of course, the X-Plane project went well, so maybe government sponsored innovation contests could work. I think McCain supported such an idea.

So that’s a scratch for me on the Economy. They are vastly different and I have no clue whose plan is better. Overall I guess I would say I trust Obama more to manage the complex details that may come up, which is to say that he’s more intelligent at some level. That doesn’t mean he has better ideas, just that he can handle a more complex view of things, which is something I would like to have in a President.

Just capturing some thoughts here before I watch the Saddleback forum and the first debate.

Things I’m not liking in the McCain Camp:

• The RNC clips I’ve seen seemed more immature to me than the DNC clips. Less strategy and more poking fun. Giuliani is a disgrace. The “community organizer”joke completely turned me off. He makes me ashamed to be a registered Republican.
• Sarah Palin kinda scares me. I don’t think she comes even close to Joe Biden in terms of being prepared and able to lead the country in dire times. I like her spunk, I don’t think she’d be able to work with Congress.
• McCain is starting to scare me. It must be an act, but he’s losing all the moderation and consistency that made him appealing in the first place. Not that I voted for him.
• Iran is not a threat. They have the same sovereign right to harness nuclear fuel for their people that we do. Their president’s term ends in less than 9 months, at which point a more moderate president is likely to be elected. Stop talking about it.

Things I’m not liking in the Obama camp:

• Now that the platform is being layed out a little more clearly, I’m not really for it:
• I work for an energy company. Nobody realizes how big and complex the existing energy infrastructure is. I think the energy companies are in the best position to help transition that structure to new fuels over time. A lot of the “record profits” are being invested directly in that direction. Also, we’re in incredible competition for what remaining fossil fuels there are. Taxing the energy companies sounds easy on the surface, but limiting their ability to compete in the global economy and removing resources that are being invested in alternative energy anyway will hurt us more than help us in the long run. Obviously I’m biased.
• I’m a fan of foreign aid - for health. As a homeschooler, talk of “global education” as part of that aid make me nervous.
• I’m mostly pro-life in philosophy. I have mixed feelings about the fringe cases, but I’m definitely against late-term pre-mature births made into abortions. I don’t think Obama would push abortion in his term, but I don’t know.

We’ll see if watching the debate or the Saddleback forum clear any of this up for me.

So you’re a cynic then?

Oh, you know… it’s that people are story tellers, they like to tell stories. They like to have stories that make sense, and make sense out of life I guess. Some people have a greater need for that than others; my own need for it is extremely high, but my need for the story to be true is even higher.

And that’s really my problem. None of the stories I’ve heard that make sense are true. And as you try to flesh out what are supposed to be the true stories, they often stop making sense, so you’re kindof caught there.

So at this point I look at it and say, you know, if you’re telling me a story and it all makes sense, I bet it’s not true. I bet you’re not telling me all the details. I bet if we looked at all the details, your little story about government conspiracies or faith-not-works or slow evolution don’t really hang together. I bet as you inject more truth into the picture by looking at more facts or reading more scriptures or being honest about the lack of fossil evidence for slow evolution, the story stops being sensible.

So your a cynical relativist?

Heavens, I hope not. No no, I think there are some absolutes, and I try to steer my life by the ones that impact how a life should be steered. I just think our stories are inadequate; so not surprisingly I currently find myself drawn to other observers that are saying “wow, what a crock”, because I feel like they’re at lease facing the facts, and surely we have to start there.

I find the better comedians are the best at this. Somehow because they make it funny, they’re able to talk more honestly about how nonsensical it all is.

So you’re a Jon Stewart fan boy?

Bingo, guilty as charged. I love that guy.

You do realize he epitomizes everything wrong in America, don’t you?!?

Uh… no comment… I want to say no comment b/c I can tell the conversation is about to take a bad turn, and I don’t deal with conflict well. But to be honest, while I don’t agree with all his politics, la la la, I appreciate that he tells the truth as best he knows how in a way that makes me laugh. Sweet! I think he’s courageous. And a man of integrity in the ways that I care about.

Yes, the interview does seem to be unraveling a bit.

Well, that’s my experience with stories, as I was saying…

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The Candidate. Robert Redford, released 1972. Awesome.

I note in the imdb user comments “A must for cynics” :)

It’s enlightening to see how little has changed in 36 years. I’m almost driven not to vote at all.

Good night all. Sweet dreams…

Once there was a little cog. The little cog lived in a little town with other little cogs. Every little cog knew every other little cog, and they were all known and special. This little cog was littler than most, but he was very bright, and that was something special about him. All the other cogs and gears and levers in town looked at the little cog and said “Whoo-eee, is that ever a bright little cog!”. And the little cog began to think he was probably among the brightest cogs ever made. He dreamed of someday being a bright cog flying in outer space.

When the little cog got a little bigger he went to a bigger town with a special factory for polishing bright little cogs in an effort to make them brighter and fit for bright cog work. The little cog loved living with all the other bright little cogs. He loved it so much that he didn’t even notice that some of the other cogs were even brighter than he was. Life was very shiny, and he dreamed of a shiny future.

One day the little cog grew up. Flying in outer space didn’t sound very interesting any more. He met a bright little girl cog who didn’t recognize how bright and pretty she was, and they hung out. He helped her see how bright and pretty she was. They got hitched. They had little bright cogs of their own.

During this time the little cog worked in several big machines with lots of other little cogs. Again the other cogs thought “Wow, there’s a bright little cog”, and he got grouped with other bright little cogs. After a few years of this, the little cog grew weary of life in the big machine. It was big, and kinda messy, and while it did good things and the other little cogs loved him, the little cog felt lost and unimportant. He felt a bright little cog should be much brighter and run much faster than what the big machine allowed. And he thought the big machine could do just as well without him. The little cog dreamed of being in a smaller, shinier machine where he was a critical part and everything ran faster. And so the little cog and his little wife struck out on their own and hooked up to various little machines.

Until one day the little cog made a mistake estimating the amount of grease he needed to help one particular little machine. The little cog had never been very good at grease management, and in fact had been troubled that grease management and the acquisition of grease had permeated every operation at the big machines. But now the little cog had to borrow a lot of grease from a grease lender in order to complete his work for the little machine. Afterwards, being low on grease himself and needing to repay the borrowed grease, the little cog had no choice but to go back to a big machine. This time he went to one of the biggest machines in the state, where there was plenty of grease to spare.

Life at the biggest machine was surprisingly pleasant.

Meanwhile the little cog’s little cogs were growing up, and the little cog began to wonder about their future. Were they destined to work in a big machine? Or could they perhaps fly around in outer space? Perhaps they could be star-bright little cogs in HollyCog, or they could be noble little cogs working to save the jungles from less noble little cogs. But the little cog came to see that even these works happened in the context of a bigger machine.

The little cog reflected on being a bright little cog in a big machine, and the relative lack of impact any one little cog could have, though recognizing that the big machine accomplished much. Then he considered being a bright little cog in a little machine, and the relative higher impact one little cog could have, though with a little machine that, compared to the big machine, accomplished less. And he reflected on little machines that accomplished much, and how they didn’t stay little very long. And how grease, despite it’s grimyness, was necessary and good to keep all the machines running. Even the polish used to shine the bright little cog in his early days had grease in it.

And he concluded that all cogs and gears and levers, whether bright, big, dull, or small should strive to be their best in whatever machine they found themselves in, and that the size and shape of the machine mattered less than the quality of it’s final work. And he came to see that he, his little wife, and their little cogs formed their own little machine, and that this was the machine where perhaps he could be the brightest of all.

This is pretty similar to Mladen’s solution over at SQLTeam. I didn’t actually start with his, though I probably should have… The primary benefit of this version being that it can handle negative lengths (like where you want to round to the next 10, next 100, etc).

Let me know if you see any errors.

/*

Rounds the given number up to the length specified.

If length is positive, rounds up that length to the right of the decimal.

If length is negative, rounds up that length to the left of the decimal. 

created 20080220 by sparrow */

ALTER function [dbo].[fnRoundUp](@numToRound numeric(18,6), @length int)

returns numeric(18,6)

as

begin

            declare @ten numeric(38,19)

            set @ten = 10

            return (ceiling(@numToRound*power(@ten,@length)))*(1.00000/power(@ten,@length))

end

Tattooed punk with orange mohawk and questionable t-shirt.

Lady with kids hanging all over her, that stopped anyway.

Guy whose legs weren’t quite working right.

Prissy looking lady.

Guy with down syndrome.

Guy that was ringing the bell before me.

Normal looking guy.

Normal looking gal that was in too big a hurry to say Merry Christmas back, but still got some money in the pot.

Lady that spent 3 minutes trying to find the change pocket in her purse.

Tattooed punk with orange mohawk, this time covered with a cap, coming back a different week, putting money in the pot again.

Lady that liked my whistling.

Cowboy that was in a hurry.

All the people I judged as down and outers or losers that stopped to put some money in a bell ringer’s pot, said Merry Christmas, and changed my mind about what counts as a down and out loser.

All the little kids with their loose change and quarters, God bless ‘em.

6 hours of bell ringing across 3 days.

Priceless.